upgrade engine or not?

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upgrade engine or not?

Post by jmbeaver on Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:50 pm

I just got a 63 Beetle and I would like to know if its stock motor will comfortably go 70 mph. I'm doubting it so I'm thinking about getting a 1600cc motor (or something else if a cheap one is recommended).

Will I need to modify the tranny to fit a bigger motor?
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Heinz57 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:02 pm

Yes it will bolt in, but you will need to clearance the 6 volt transmission bell housing 1st. The reason you need to clearance the transmission is because the 12 volt flywheel is bigger The 6 volt uses a 180 mm clutch and the 12 volt uses a 200 mm. I like to install the engine, and have someone put push on the engine with light pressure and then turn the crank bolt. This will make the marks on the transmission and now you will know where to grind.

The transmission gear ratio in your tranny is a 4:37 and is not really the one of choice for the 1600. These transmissions are fine for the smaller engines that needed to wind out a little higher to get into their designed RPM range. If you were only cruising around town, its fine, not so good on the Interstate for any long distances.

The 1500/1600 engines came from the factory with a 4:12 from '67-'72 and the '73-'04 1600's came with the 3:88 ratio. Will the 4:37 gear work? Yes, but not well 70 mph since the gear ratio will cause the engine to run as if it was at 78-80 mph and it may over heat during the warmer parts of the year.

I was in the same position with my '59 Bug with a 1600. I was able to find a '68 swing axle, this is a 12 volt transmission, no grinding required and will have the correct gear ratio. You can also use a '67 transmission too.
Use your axles, tubes and brakes since the '67 and earlier cars had narrower rear track widths than the '68.

Danny
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:23 pm

Good advice!

I would suggest just running a 40 horse with maybe a few performance upgrades! You will enjoy the roar of the 40.

If you are wanting to cruise 70 for long periods definately use a 1600 with later gearing...

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by buggin70 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:26 pm

freeway flyer trans?
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:28 pm

No freeway flyer unless you have more power to over come the hole between 3rd and 4th


Last edited by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by buggin70 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:37 pm

ok
i want one but im hoping to get a 1776

so thats good right?
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:40 pm

Yeah why not

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by buggin70 on Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:41 pm

idk haha

or what about a gene burg 5 speed tranny?
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by jmbeaver on Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:29 pm

Thanks for the info Danny! Glad I asked - those are good points.
"performance upgrades" probably means less fuel efficiency. So I need to think about how much money I want to spend looking for a motor AND and transmission. I would like to take it on the Interstate every now and then.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Bugman114 on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:19 am

dude, do you know how much a gene berg 5 speed conversion costs? its over $1600 for the kit $250 for the shifter. thats over $1800 plus you still need a tranny to do it to, lol. so your prolly looking at over $3K after you consider shipping, and buying a good tranny to even do the conversion too. i mean, theres no sense in adding that pricey kit to an old used tranny. you'd pretty much have to buy a new tranny. besides, with the berg kit, the 5th gear overdrive is the same as stock 4th gear overdrive. it just adds another gear between 3rd and 4th basically making a close ratio 4-5 gear tranny (kinda like the pro sand tranny's with close ratio 3rd-4th gears).

a freeway flyer is whats typically referred to as a late model IRS trans (usually found in superbeetles, and other latemodels). unless you mean the aftermarket upgrade to make the 4th gear a lot taller. in that case, i wouldn't.

as far as a stock motor. 70 is prolly as fast as you'll be able to go, lol. with my stock 1600 motor, i can do 75 with my foot to the floor. 80ish with my foot to the floor going downhill, and it will slow down considerably if you hit any kind of uphill. you may be able to hit 70, but don't expect to be able to change lanes very easily, lol. when i had the turbo on my stock 1600, 70 was nothing. i was able to cruise at 90mph no problems (don't ask me how i know that Twisted Evil ), and still had power to spare. and when i drove my 2074cc motor, 90 was also no problem. infact, my bone stock 1600 with a turbo had about as much power as my NA 2074cc. i wonder how it will compare when i turbo that motor Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by 56HAVOC on Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:41 am

Damm I wish you guys gave me the tranny talk back when I got my 1915cc. That's why I'm park up now with a blown tranny rats this sucks Sad Sad
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by jmbeaver on Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:24 am

So this is probably a dumb question but I don't have the knowledge or experience yet:
can I put my 63 top onto a 68 or 69 chass, motor and trans?
I'm not too decided on keeping it original stock. I'd really like to be able to drive it anywhere more so than being a purist. It would be different if it was an oval or split.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by fluxcap on Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:16 am

jmbeaver wrote:So this is probably a dumb question but I don't have the knowledge or experience yet:
can I put my 63 top onto a 68 or 69 chass, motor and trans?

Yes. You'll have to remove and relocate the rear body mounts (the mounts inside the rear fender well, one on each side). Other than that I believe they bolt right up. Alex did that with his 63. Here is a write up he did about it. The first few pics are replacing the pan halves, if you have a good donor chassis, you won't need to do this. Scroll down a bit to the see mounts.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=207023

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Hobug on Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:22 am

A 63 bug with the stock 40 horse will cruise all day on the highway. It won't get up to speed fast, but has no problem running the speed limit. I drove a stock 63 for years as my only car and never had a problem.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Grifspop on Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:12 am

I did a pan swap on my '57, it's sitting on a '68 pan, it's really not that difficult.

If you put your '63 on a newer pan with drivetrain, you'll pick up ball joints, dual circuit master cylinder, 1600 dual port with doghouse shroud, 12 volt alternator, transmission gearing to match the 1600, all the good mechanical upgrades that VW invested in, but keep the looks of the earlier Beetle.

My '57 runs Ghia disc brakes with drop spindles on the front, and Type 3 drums on the rear, unfortunately your track width will increase also, but you can always get a narrowed beam.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Bugman114 on Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:41 pm

just make sure you change out the steering column with the later style, that has the collapsable cage on the end, that way if you get in a front end collision, you won't be impaled to death by the steering wheel Wink
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by vw57drvr on Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:40 pm

Unless something has changed, the berg 5 speed had the same gearing in 5th as a stock 4th. Just shorter gears until 5th.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Bugman114 on Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:48 am

vw57drvr wrote:Unless something has changed, the berg 5 speed had the same gearing in 5th as a stock 4th. Just shorter gears until 5th.

nope, still the same. the new 5th gear is the same as stock 4th. the only difference is basically adding a gear between stock 3rd and stock 4th. to me it really doesn't seem like its worth it, but i guess its just for the kewl factor. Laughing
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by buggin70 on Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:52 am

i thought they added a new one after 4th
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by ibjamn on Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:47 am

Bugman114 wrote:
vw57drvr wrote:Unless something has changed, the berg 5 speed had the same gearing in 5th as a stock 4th. Just shorter gears until 5th.

nope, still the same. the new 5th gear is the same as stock 4th. the only difference is basically adding a gear between stock 3rd and stock 4th. to me it really doesn't seem like its worth it, but i guess its just for the kewl factor. Laughing

How much is the tranny - for curiosity's sake? I know nothing about VW trannys, but it would seem that changing the gears to something like the freeway flyers gears wouldn't be too bad. Of course that depends on the gearing ratios not being too close and making a redundant gear shift....... or maybe that's a mute point since it would be more costly and stupidly difficult by doing that. silent

Grifspop wrote:I did a pan swap on my '57, it's sitting on a '68 pan, it's really not that difficult.

If you put your '63 on a newer pan with drivetrain, you'll pick up ball joints, dual circuit master cylinder, 1600 dual port with doghouse shroud, 12 volt alternator, transmission gearing to match the 1600, all the good mechanical upgrades that VW invested in, but keep the looks of the earlier Beetle.

Just a question about this..... Wouldn't that mean that (*technically*) the car would have to be registered as the year of the chassis?

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Bugman114 on Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:08 pm

the berg kit changes the 4th gear out, for a close ratio 4-5 gear. the 5th overdrive gear is the exact same ratio as the stock 4th gear. they are basically sticking another gear between stock 3rd and 4th. having a taller final drive gear is very bad for your motor, as it will cause the motor to overheat, since the fn is turning slower, and the engine is working harder to maintain the same speed. here is the link to the write-up on berg's site:

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=13_387

I mean, why would you want a taller overdrove in the first place? with a bigger engine you can easily hit 100mph. do you really need to go any faster? i went 110mph when i had the turbo on my bone stock 1600 (I did that on 675 with no traffic, which was a stupid thing to do, and i'll never do that again). besides if you do use a taller overdrive, with a stock motor you'll go even slower, because you won't have enough power to get p to speed. i can bearly get up to speed with my stock 1600 Laughing
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by ibjamn on Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:05 pm

I'm not really saying to add another gear (5th) on top of the 4 stock gears.
My thoughts were originally this;
By having a little bit more powerfull motor, using a 5 speed tranny with a final gear just a bit taller than the 4th on stock. Cruising at 70 - 75 mph with a little lower RPMs wouldn't be so loud anymore for people with louder exhaust going long distances. And having closer gearing with 5 gears vs. 4, the RPMs would be closer to the average gas consumption of when the motor was stock and would make up for the extra gas consumed by having a larger displacement motor. If the fan/shroud has been upgraded to a better one that moves more air over the heads, then overheating wouldn't be such a worry at lower RPM... I wouldn't think.
This is assuming of course, that the slightly larger motor has the necessary torque at the lower RPM band to keep the momentum.

Again, I don't know much about this subject..... so I am merely wondering.....and yes, I am theorizing without research, and that is not good either.
I will read more of the Berg write up after I get the kids from school.
Thanks for the link.
Very Happy

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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Bugman114 on Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:18 pm

berg already tried that, lol. he had a taller 5th gear, and the problem was cruising at 75, the engine will have to work harder to achieve this speed due to the higher ratio. and since the engine is working harder, its using more power, but the fan is also turning slower, thus overheating. so he tried using a larger crank pulley to get the fan to spin faster, but that takes even more power, which in turn more heat. but if you use a bigger motor, the motor is naturally gonna give off more heat. so its just a vicious cycle. pretty interesting stuff. there are a few topics on thesamba that go more in depth on this topic about changing the ratios, and gearing. i think jimmy111, and jake raby did a few write ups, with lots of numbers, and calculations on the subject. just gotta find topics. i'll post up the links if i find them.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by ponycar25 on Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:42 am

1600 would be a great engine, I have one that is stock with a type III tranny in my 64 Bug and I have had it to 85 on the interstate with some pedal left, the only thing not stock is the pertronix ignition and the header, other than that It's a stock carb and everything else. P.S. I highly recommend the pertronix to replace the points, it made a major difference in power through the entire RPM range.
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

Post by Grifspop on Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:38 am

I've always registered it as a 1957, the tag people have never come outside to check the numbers on the pan or the engine



Grifspop wrote:I did a pan swap on my '57, it's sitting on a '68 pan, it's really not that difficult.

If you put your '63 on a newer pan with drivetrain, you'll pick up ball joints, dual circuit master cylinder, 1600 dual port with doghouse shroud, 12 volt alternator, transmission gearing to match the 1600, all the good mechanical upgrades that VW invested in, but keep the looks of the earlier Beetle.

Just a question about this..... Wouldn't that mean that (*technically*) the car would have to be registered as the year of the chassis?[/quote]
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Re: upgrade engine or not?

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