No Pedal Yet

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No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:13 am

To start, I have replaced the master cylinder, all wheel cylinders, shoes, soft lines, "blue" lines to reservoir and cleaned all hard lines. The hard lines were removed, jetted with carb cleaner, blown with air and flushed with brake fluid. I primed the master, cracked the bleeder screw at each wheel (starting at RR, LR, RF & LF) and gave it pedal until I got fluid. This was done to fill the system. Later I bled the system starting at RR and so on. One pump, two pump, three pump, hold..........crack the screw and let the air out until clear, bubble free fluid comes through the tube. I repeat this 4 times per wheel and I have been around the car 3 times. I am still getting air each time I make a round. I left the adjusters almost all the way in. This is a pressure system not a vacuum so if there was a breech in the system it would show up as a leak and I have none. I have bled brakes before from a line replacement but never from a bone dry, empty system. Two questions.

1. Is it normal for it to take this long to fully empty the air out of the system?
2. Once I have the system bled and I adjust the shoes out, is this when I will get a pedal?

Right now, there is no resistance on the pedal.


Last edited by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:18 am

yeah it takes a little while

go ahead and adjust the shoes and see what kind of pedal you got, then continue to bleed

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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:20 am

Attorney Isaiah Loophole wrote:yeah it takes a little while

go ahead and adjust the shoes and see what kind of pedal you got, then continue to bleed
On the adjustment, do I run them out until they drag the drum then back off a click or two?
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by EngineerTEN on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:21 am

Adjust your brakes pads and you normally would and then work your way around again. I did this exercise a few weeks ago when I replaced 100% of my brake system - everything new. Once you do this, I think you will find the results you are looking for.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:24 am

71_georgia_beetle wrote:On the adjustment, do I run them out until they drag the drum then back off a click or two?
Run them out until you cant turn the drum then back in a couple until you are able to spin the drum with light drag

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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by aircooledaddicts on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:25 am

Run them out till the wheel is hard to turn then back of till it is a slight drag.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by fluxcap on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:26 am

It took me and my dad about 4 hours to get my brakes feeling right. As Bryce and Gary said, definitely go ahead and adjust your brake pads. The reason it took me so long was I installed the brake pads, then attempted bleeding for a long time. Never could get a good pedal. I guess when I first adjusted the brake pads, they weren't "settled" all the way into their slots. Then when I started pumping the brakes for bleeding, they settled, thus leaving a lot of extra room between the pad and drum. I kept thinking I had a leak somewhere, because the pedal would go all the way down. Finally thought to adjust the brakes again, and presto, I had a great feeling pedal.


Last edited by fluxcap on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by aircooledaddicts on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:26 am

Attorney Isaiah Loophole wrote:
Run them out until you cant turn the drum then back in a couple until you are able to spin the drum with light drag

You beat me to it Smile
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 39coupe on Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:24 am

Like Gary and Bryce said - adjust first then bleed. I bought my first '65 back in 1994 for $300 because after replacing everything on the brakes and dropping $800 in the engine the guy couldn't get the brakes to work. I took the car home, adjusted the brakes per Gary and Bryce's instructions then did the bleeding starting at the furthest from the master and presto breaks. The guy saw my wife driving the car the very next day and about flipped out, I didn't bother to tell him how easy it was to fix. That would have really got him.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by vwovalchild on Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:42 am

LOCK the brakes down with adjustment. DO NOT back off of them until you get all the bleeding done. By locking them down you allow the pedal a full throw of pushing fluid out. Once you you have all the air out Then back off adjustment until slight drag.

Do the bleeding RR,LR RF,LF
I promise you will have brakes after this.
cheers
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:38 pm

ANOTHER QUESTION: When I reinstalled the pedal rod I left about 5 to 6mm before contact (free play) to prevent premature contact with the master. Is this correct/OK?
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Clyde on Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:11 pm

I go with 1/4" to 1/2" at the pedal, but 5-6mm at the rod will work also. The main thing is that the master cylinder fully retracts to relieve pressure.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:06 pm

SIDE NOTE****

One the front drums, how tight should the bearing nut be(maybe hub nut)? The one that holds everything in with the allen set screw. If I give it anything more than hand tight it locks the whole thing down.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by vwovalchild on Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:16 pm

Did you replace the wheel bearings in the wheels also?

You should have to use a wrench and tighten the wheel brg down untill the wheel is slow to turn. This seats the brg into the race.
Once you do this loosen it a touch until the wheel spins freely. If it locks up with the slightest turn of a wrench you might want to look at the brgs and races again.

If the race is not seated all the way down into the drum this could cause the problem you described above .

Finger tight is not enough, this will wear out your brgs.


Last edited by votwing on Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by vwovalchild on Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:18 pm

Clyde wrote:I go with 1/4" to 1/2" at the pedal, but 5-6mm at the rod will work also. The main thing is that the master cylinder fully retracts to relieve pressure.

I agree with Clyde 1/4 inch is good.

As long as you have a little free play with the pedal when the master cylinder is relaxed.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:53 pm

71_georgia_beetle wrote:SIDE NOTE****

One the front drums, how tight should the bearing nut be(maybe hub nut)? The one that holds everything in with the allen set screw. If I give it anything more than hand tight it locks the whole thing down.
You should be able to move the washer around a slight bit with a screw driver when you have tightened the nut down. If you cant move it then it is too tight.

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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:51 pm

OK, the slant on the adjusters are correct now. Hell 2 out of 8 ain't bad Embarassed Now, for my new frustration.............I still have no pedal. I adjusted all 4 until they lock the drums and bled the system again. I had very few to no air bubbles in the back but I just don't understand the front. With every pump I get more and more air. I have now run one large 32oz bottle of fluid through and half of another. I pulled the drums and had my wife hit the pedal and the wheel cylinders do not move. Fluid is getting to the cylinders because I can see the seal flex ever so slightly out when the pedal is depressed. Could it be a bad MC? Any suggestions before I drag it up to someone who knows what the hell they are doing?
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by vwovalchild on Thu Aug 28, 2008 11:25 pm

Do you have one of the vacum bleeders?

You could try one of those.

Put everything back together and try opening one of the bleeder screws. Without pumping the pedal will fluid run out?

If it does let it run a bit and then shut the screw.


You can also try taking the brake light switch out that goes to the front and hold your index finger over the hole and have somone push on the pedal slowly. After several pumps and good fluid is coming out put the switch back in while they are holding the pedal down. Once you have the switch back in and tight you can release the pedal.

Then move out to the bleeder screw and opening it. Try holding your finger over the bleeder screw while somone pumps the pedal.

I know this sounds stupid but make sure the brake fluid does not run low in the resivoir while you bleeding.

Good Luck
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Hobug on Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:11 am

If the wheel cylinders are only moving a little, the rod on the pedal may be too far out and not giving a full stroke. Usually if the drums are removed and you press the pedal all the way the wheel cylinder will leak at the least and blow out at the max. Come get my pressure bleeder and you'll be sure that all the lines are purged. It will also make sure the MC is air free.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Attorney Isaiah Loophole on Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:20 am

Hobug wrote:Come get my pressure bleeder and you'll be sure that all the lines are purged. It will also make sure the MC is air free.

I have never used one. Can you give a brief explanation of how they are used and do you still have to pump the pedal?

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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Hobug on Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:36 am

Attorney Isaiah Loophole wrote:
Hobug wrote:Come get my pressure bleeder and you'll be sure that all the lines are purged. It will also make sure the MC is air free.

I have never used one. Can you give a brief explanation of how they are used and do you still have to pump the pedal?

There is no pumping of the pedal. It is like a bug sprayer that you pump up. You put brake fluid in it and it screws to the top of the brake fluid reservior. Pump it up to pressurize the system and then just open the bleeders till all the air is gone.

http://www.amazon.com/Motive-0100-European-Power-Bleeder/dp/B0002KM5L0/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1220009689&sr=8-2

They have different applications and they do have one that fits VWs.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:04 pm

Hobug wrote: Come get my pressure bleeder and you'll be sure that all the lines are purged. It will also make sure the MC is air free.
Thanks Jon, What time will you be around?
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by Hobug on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:10 pm

Give me a call and we'll figure out a time.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by 71_georgia_beetle on Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:31 am

OK, I think I have a bad MC. I used the Power Bleeder and there is zero air in the system. For those that don't know, it's a modified bug sprayer with a cap where sprayer nozzle should go and a pressure gauge on the side. Attach the cap to your reservoir, pump to 10psi and look for leaks. No leaks? Fill the pump bottle with a liter of clean brake fluid. This is to keep nothing but fluid from entering the system. Pump to 15psi and bleed the brakes. I went around the car twice and only had to give it two pumps back up to 15psi. I nailed it on the first go around, the second was just to double check and there isn't even the smallest bubble in that system. OK sales pitch is over.

I bled as see above and still no pedal. I readjusted the brakes as they began to seat, still no pedal. I ran the rod to the point that there was just 3 or 4 threads holding it in and still no pedal. When I said I had rear brakes before, I was incorrect. There is enough pressure to keep me from turning the drum by hand but when I put the tire on I could spin it with ease. I ran the adjuster out until they were locked pretty good against the drum and rolled her down the drive. I pressed the pedal to the floor and got the braking equivalent of someone dragging their foot. Brakes are bled, everything is new, pads are adjusted and I have run the full spectrum of locations for the rod and I still have no resistance on the pedal.

Bad MC?

Votwing wrote:Put everything back together and try opening one of the bleeder screws. Without pumping the pedal will fluid run out?
A drop. With a clear hose attached, full of fluid and attached to the bleeder screw it moves the fluid just a tad when you press the pedal. I assume it should come out with a little force.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

Post by vwovalchild on Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:35 am

71_georgia_beetle

Have you tried removing a brake light switch and placing your finger over the hole?

If you get somone pushing on the pedal and there is no air in the lines and your finger is covering the hole tightly it should spray the fluid from behind you finger. If it doesn't then you either have a bad master cyl or there is still air in the master cylinder.
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Re: No Pedal Yet

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